Alfa. Ideas and feedback

Started by Partizan_Rusi, Mar 05, 2017, 09:22 am

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Partizan_Rusi

Next version of progression system needs hard caps on stats. Some maximum level builds look like blatant exploits. Nakeds with full speed as example, running like on speedhack. Damage builds too : two shots with 1h sword and instakills with 2h.
It should be competitive pvp game isn't it ? Not some fantasy rpg where you must maximize stats to be competitive.

How the hell you can parry while jumping. You could hit backside of the leg and be parried, damn it. Needs fixing too.

Archer sharpshooters. Wearing full lamellar armor, full helmets that impair vision(!), mail or scale gloves somehow archers in this game are able hit targets reliably in around 30-40 meters and standing targets even beyond that. Precision is superb. Its easier to hit targets with bows compared to any crossbow and rate of fire is a factor too.
It doesn't make any sense and must change. Also tin cans with bows looks ridiculous.

Partizan_Rusi

#1
Mar 17, 2017, 10:22 am Last Edit: Mar 20, 2017, 09:55 pm by Partizan_Rusi
New conquest and new stuff.
About map - M. Its good overview and I able to see enemies running on this view.
Maybe you shouldn't be able to see enemies everywhere and spy their every move. Tracking teammates is fine.

Fix jump attacks, it looks bad. Obvious one. Sudden long jumps in a middle of a fight.
Tweak whole progression system. People need that to play more, described points above.
+ Picture of combat looks pretty grim :
Pumped over noobs level 50+ who have ridiculous advantage in speed and damage(or even smartarse builds) keep on destroying other players. Its because of this bullshit there is not much reason play Okam or even test it nightly builds, for now.

Fix shield blocking and combat overall. Shield feels like a big heavy and slow crutch. Its effective when archers are around, but in melee combat it feels bad compared to only weapon. Maybe its encumberance playing its part. Some attacks just going through shield when deflected by block with only weapon.
New players should rely on shield to learn game. Its easier for them that way.

There is a lot of stuff to tune in combat. Especially how "schwing range" and weapon length never felt right. Sometimes it feels like you can hit targets reliably only 1 meter from your body. Doesn't make any sense.  How weapons suddenly deflects from plate, even 2h.

Generally swords are best weapons.
Why you made axes and polearms so unusable. Its because of broken hitboxes or what. Why weapons with metal head is so slow (even 2h and they shouldn't be that slow) and they don't make a lot more damage to compensate for it.

+Team balance should sort players by their levels at least. Only today there was few times when teams were stacked.  Like team of veterans 50 lvl agains complete noobs in padded and mail. It looked atrocious. Players of 49-50 levels are completely different class from 1-20.

Partizan_Rusi

#2
Mar 22, 2017, 12:41 pm Last Edit: Mar 22, 2017, 02:36 pm by Partizan_Rusi
Posting here 'lol stabs" discussion that made some controversy. Posting from my point of view.

I've made this animation with stab issues long time ago - http://i.imgur.com/6NzVYJC.gifv
I have to say I tested spear stabs and they work exactly like polearms in pre-alfa, shaft making something close to full damage or even full damage.

This is your "lol stabby" issue - https://gfycat.com/SilentGreedyFalcon Tested with spears. Hitting man's legs with wooden shaft 2 times and killing him. This can be done for any long weapon.

You have "lolstabs" because whole weapon hitbox is hitting, not only head. You should fix that instead of some band-aid solutions.
That means that stab hitbox = head of the weapon only. It could also mean you should refine hitboxes.
Only pointy end of long sharp things must hit, not the blade or shaft. Here is your fix.
Hah, spears killing me with wooden slashes, through plate armor,mail and padded. What a joke.

Hitboxes for sword, image 1 - http://i.imgur.com/rLWfYWQ.jpg
Already suggested that only hitbox 1 (head) must do damage in stabby time.

That should fix it if hitbox 2 is used properly. I mean if collision is calculated and it does damage on swing .
Its doing full damage if you run your end point through enemy.

Hitboxes for axes and spears, image 1 - http://i.imgur.com/T53pbbi.jpg
Axe and spear head is different because shaft(hitbox 2) is wooden and must do minimal damage.(изменено)

I remember times when WotR beta had big weapon collisions, its chamber strikes every 3rd time. They had to remove it because it was too spammy time.

Whole issue with "lol stabby" is because Hitbox 2 is doing full damage and working as Lightsaber basicly. Thats not special Okam issue, its almost everywhere.  Why not just fix this bs by fixing hitbox 2 states.
You shouldn't impair turning speed instead of fixing problem. That doesn't make any sense at all.


Quotepogosan: @[TKM] kaktus14 :
balance stabs doesn't take a lot of work, working on engine collision and hitboxes does

pogosan: there is also an idea to reduce damage after you turn far enough, but it doesn't look as elegant I think

pogosan: @Partizan_Rusi :
"you can do 180 stab and still hit with "hitbox 1" from your pictures, and that's a bad mechanic"
You must fix the damn issue, not nerf stabs.
Partizan_Rusi: Nerf is easy with flat numerical damage decrease across all weapons, but you shouldn't impair skill in gameplay.
@pogosan no you can't if hitbox 2 slide off or deflected.
You still didn't figure it out ?  If I had closer look at engine and mechanic works, I would say more precisely how it should work.
With spears stabs won't do damage if shaft slide to side of the body...or even deflected off armor or legs/arms.

QuoteOuki: You can still lol stab and land the tip
Quotepogosan: we're not fixing the issue you're describing, collision and hitboxes will be tweaked later
pogosan: we're fixing

1. Start stab
2. Turn 180 degrees
3. Hit with pointy end
4. Do full damage
When Hitbox 2 deflected, Hitbox 1 turned off, how about that.

Give us insight into engine and how mechanics work and we'll be able to tell you how to fix it more precisely.
Until that its all "we can't fix this major issue with combat, because we don't know how yet".

+Is it so hard to make 2 separate hitboxes work in different states and have different types ? = Basicly we can translate this to "make few different hitboxes for different types of weapons" for engine and coders either way.

_______

Its old story about hitboxes that keep coming up with every melee project.
Here is some visuals for you comrades.


Okam. Visualising proper hit registration(+hitboxes) works :
http://i.imgur.com/6NzVYJC.mp4


http://i.imgur.com/T53pbbi.jpg



Butterlord. Full damage with wooden shaft (same things with 1 hitbox ) :





War of the Roses, better way :
http://i.imgur.com/ABfq3sa.mp4





Warband bad old way(1 hitbox) :

http://i.imgur.com/Fv2lw6V.gifv
http://i.imgur.com/FpSFzST.jpg


Butterlord same bad old way again :
http://i.imgur.com/kVENJAX.gifv



+Chivalry, for more salt.
Unreal Engine. Traces along the weapon body. It should be same for Mordhau.


http://i.imgur.com/lVPtx4g.mp4


PS
No, I don't use spoilers.

pogosan

Yep, it all will be looked into. The stab fix added in the last nightly is for different issue though.

  • You can start an attack
  • Then turn 180 degrees towards your enemy
  • Hit normally with "Hitbox 1" and no "lolstab" you described
  • And do full damage
my twitter I post random stuff, OKAM included
OKAM twitter I don't post random stuff, only OKAM

Partizan_Rusi

#4
Mar 22, 2017, 01:11 pm Last Edit: Mar 22, 2017, 03:53 pm by Partizan_Rusi
Quote from: pogosan on Mar 22, 2017, 01:05 pmYep, it all will be looked into. The stab fix added in the last nightly is for different issue though.

  • You can start an attack
  • Then turn 180 degrees towards your enemy
  • Hit normally with "Hitbox 1" and no "lolstab" you described
  • And do full damage
I've already answered that.

QuoteWhen Hitbox 2 deflected, Hitbox 1 turned off, how about that.
Give us insight into engine and how mechanics work and we'll be able to tell you how to fix it more precisely.
Until that its all "we can't fix this major issue with combat, because we don't know how yet".
Thing is we need more info on engine, hit registration and basic mechanics to provide more refined answer for this issue. In this case its critical to know all mechanics of hit detection in Okam engine.

Berzemus

Let's not forget battle is only part of the game. Combat is already pretty solid, or there wouldn't be any players left at this point.

I'd very much prefer a very unambitious & iterative introduction of other content (& epic) then constant debates on battle mechanics.

Instead of selling the product on how you can fight, sell it on what you should fight for !

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