So we just had 50 people online tonight...

Started by Ramses, Jan 08, 2017, 09:10 pm

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BrotherenSmoke

Quote from: Ramses on Jan 11, 2017, 02:59 pm
Quote from: Vibe on Jan 11, 2017, 12:19 pmIt's not bad because it's different than Warband, it's bad because it just plays worse. Clunky and slower controls/movement, "one button does everything" that works more against the game than for it. The funny thing is even cRPG was like that compared to Warband already, OKAM just takes it one step deeper into garbage.
Not disagreeing, but you should perhaps play a little post December patch. They really sped up the game and attacks quite a bit.

@The fluid system haters: There is also nothing stopping you from playing Okam the Warband way: Always with locked stance. Nothing is forcing you to play with a fluid stance.
can I like this 12 times? thank you!

Siegbert

Tried this once. I felt like I couldn't react as fast as I could with the fluid system. So if anything the fluid system makes combat quicker but less button mashy.

Ramses

Quote from: Siegbert on Jan 11, 2017, 03:09 pmTried this once. I felt like I couldn't react as fast as I could with the fluid system. So if anything the fluid system makes combat quicker but less button mashy.
To be clear, I'm not saying I prefer it. I'm just saying if you don't like Okam fluid system you can simply change it to always locked stance. There's no option to do that in Warband.

Gravoth

I still believe people simply has the warband combat etched hard into their brains, which makes considering how much time the average crpg player had played in that shit. But i think for those that are interested in the Epic, and will play more once its out will eventually adapt more to OKAMs system, and get a favorable opinion of it. It really isnt that bad, but it does force a different kind of playstyle.

Hopefully the rough edges will be fixed eventually though, thrusting and some swings just feel like they miss constantly. Can be worked around atm by just using the good swings, but its very inconvenient.

Pollux

crpg combat, and warband in general feels so much better than okam because there's a greater dynamic of motion and fluidity that allows you to define your own fighting style that feels like freedom, and it makes 5v1s possible. I don't think crpg's combat system has come close to being mastered by anyone, but it still feels like there is a greater definition between the various skill levels. devs set out to make a better combat system, but it's just more attack and block directions. crpg's combat is better because it's not overly complex or realistic, its great gameplay, fun and rewarding.


Kadeth

Quote from: Siegbert on Jan 11, 2017, 12:58 pmI never said it was perfect or ground-breaking.
I'm pretty sure you've said it that it was on par with or better than Warband. Warband is pretty ground-breaking if you ask me.

Quote from: Ramses on Jan 11, 2017, 02:59 pmThere is also nothing stopping you from playing Okam the Warband way: Always with locked stance. Nothing is forcing you to play with a fluid stance.
Enabling stance lock doesn't suddenly make the game play like Warband, and personally I never wanted OKAM to be a Warband clone anyway, but I also wasn't hoping for the very restrictive combat system that we have now.

I agree with Siegbert; it doesn't feel as responsive with stance lock always on. There are situations where stance lock on is desirable and situations where it isn't. Having to manage another setting like this during combat is nonsensical.

Quote from: Gravoth on Jan 11, 2017, 03:22 pmI still believe people simply has the warband combat etched hard into their brains, which makes considering how much time the average crpg player had played in that shit.
I'm all for melee games trying new combat systems, but it's pretty clear to me that there's a lot more you can do with your attacks in Warband than you can in OKAM. All the feint combos, animation abuse, angling attacks freely etc. are missing in OKAM, and the result is a very low skill ceiling.

Siegbert

Quote from: Kadeth on Jan 11, 2017, 10:11 pmI'm pretty sure you've said it that it was on par with or better than Warband. Warband is pretty ground-breaking if you ask me.
I accepted Warband as the standard for this type of games and yes, I find OKAM more enjoyable. But not by much... I can see myself returning to Warband's system if it turns out that Okam will fail in the end.
Neither system is perfect. Warband was fun due to its reliable simplicity while Okam for me at least is the more challenging system that's harder to learn for noobs.

Gravoth

Quote from: Kadeth on Jan 11, 2017, 10:11 pmI'm all for melee games trying new combat systems, but it's pretty clear to me that there's a lot more you can do with your attacks in Warband than you can in OKAM. All the feint combos, animation abuse, angling attacks freely etc. are missing in OKAM, and the result is a very low skill ceiling.
I mean, theres so much i never considered in warband the first time playing it. I can see potential in OKAM, learning how to use stance lock properly mid fight, finding optimal feints, strafe swings etc. I think theres much yet to be explored, there just has to be incentive to play long enough for it to be discovered. Much like in speedruns, after ten years and more, glitches are still found to optimise runs.

Kadeth

Quote from: Gravoth on Jan 11, 2017, 11:10 pmI mean, theres so much i never considered in warband the first time playing it. I can see potential in OKAM, learning how to use stance lock properly mid fight, finding optimal feints, strafe swings etc. I think theres much yet to be explored, there just has to be incentive to play long enough for it to be discovered. Much like in speedruns, after ten years and more, glitches are still found to optimise runs.
Mechanical restrictions like not being able to angle side swings, point stabs at the sky etc. is what concerns me though - that freedom that you have with your attacks in Warband. I don't really have the incentive to spend time on a game that has limitations compared to similar games in the genre. But it's early access, I haven't lost hope yet.

Kadeth

Quote from: Siegbert on Jan 11, 2017, 10:58 pmWarband was fun due to its reliable simplicity while Okam for me at least is the more challenging system that's harder to learn for noobs.
My experience was the opposite; OKAM felt very effortless after about 10-20 hours, whereas Warband can be fairly complex against high tier players.

Gristle

For the sake of argument, if cRPG's combat is a 10, I would say OKAM's melee is an 8, maybe 7. It's not better, but it gets a passing grade. However, OKAM's ranged is a 5 (nevermind that throwing isn't in yet). Not very good or fun. Needs much improvement.

Ramses

Quote from: Kadeth on Jan 11, 2017, 10:11 pmEnabling stance lock doesn't suddenly make the game play like Warband, and personally I never wanted OKAM to be a Warband clone anyway, but I also wasn't hoping for the very restrictive combat system that we have now.

I agree with Siegbert; it doesn't feel as responsive with stance lock always on. There are situations where stance lock on is desirable and situations where it isn't. Having to manage another setting like this during combat is nonsensical.

You're right, it doesn't make the game exactly like warband. Are you arguing the devs should revert to Warbands 4 attack directions?

Again, I'm not saying stance lock is or should be more desireable. I'm simply pointing out you have that option, unlike in Warband where everyone is forced to have a locked stance. Do you believe giving more options to players is a bad thing?

I know some of the best players in Okam argue playing with stance lock always on (including Cyber, whom I know you know and respect) is better, why don't you give it more of a try and put some more hours into it, rather than simply declaring its inferiority?

Quote from: Kadeth on Jan 11, 2017, 10:11 pmI'm all for melee games trying new combat systems, but it's pretty clear to me that there's a lot more you can do with your attacks in Warband than you can in OKAM. All the feint combos, animation abuse, angling attacks freely etc. are missing in OKAM, and the result is a very low skill ceiling.
I'm not sure what you're referring to by et cetera, but feint combos, animation abuse and angling of attacks are all in Okam. How much have you actually played the game? Not trying to be an ass here, just curious.

Quote from: Kadeth on Jan 11, 2017, 11:37 pmMechanical restrictions like not being able to angle side swings, point stabs at the sky etc. is what concerns me though - that freedom that you have with your attacks in Warband. I don't really have the incentive to spend time on a game that has limitations compared to similar games in the genre. But it's early access, I haven't lost hope yet.
Side swings can be angled, you simply don't see it until you actually swing the weapon. Stabs can be directed, albeit twohanded stabs and polearm stabs are bad atm IMO. Onehanded stabs and hoplite stabs are wonderful right now, much better than they ever were in Warband. By aiming your stabs you can hit someone low by hitting their ancle or feet, or by aiming high you can hit them in the shoulder or head.

Honestly, and again I'm not trying to be an asshole to you Kadeth, but it sounds to me like you haven't played the game much.

Bobby

What ramzes says. I play with locked stance most of the time. I really feel like fluid stance is noob trap, It is easy to pick up but really hard to be ggood with it.

I think that peoples fanboy over warband system to much, It is really good but far from perfect, same goes for okam. I can agree that for now Warband have better system but Okam have big chance to surpass it in my eyes.

One big argument that is big plus for OKAM system is that anyone can be competent with it in short time, warband system is punisching as hell and is really not easy to learn. Peoples really struggle to block at first and it teakes loong time for them to be good at it. It is main reason why crpg is dead now.

I dont really get why one button system is bad at all? Do we supposed to struggle with controls or we supposed to fight? It actually makes sense in REAL sword fights too.

Siegbert

#58
Jan 12, 2017, 10:56 am Last Edit: Jan 12, 2017, 10:59 am by Siegbert
Quote from: Bobby on Jan 12, 2017, 10:34 amOne big argument that is big plus for OKAM system is that anyone can be competent with it in short time, warband system is punisching as hell and is really not easy to learn. Peoples really struggle to block at first and it teakes loong time for them to be good at it. It is main reason why crpg is dead now.
Okay, but you're talking about 2h mechanics here only.
I would say for 1h+shield it's the other way around: in Warband you can hold up your shield and be perfectly safe thus being noob friendly but in Okam shields don't actually protect you very much. It's just as wielding a 2h sword with a little more passive protection which is really hard to get for a noob.

QuotePersonally I wish all these extra attack/block directions actually mattered more. Why have 9 attacks when 3-4 blocks cover everything?
Because it would be extremly hard to block the exact right direction. Only a very small amount of players would be able to pull it off. I don't want Okam to be an elite game.

Vibe

Quote from: Bobby on Jan 12, 2017, 10:34 amOne big argument that is big plus for OKAM system is that anyone can be competent with it in short time, warband system is punisching as hell and is really not easy to learn. Peoples really struggle to block at first and it teakes loong time for them to be good at it. It is main reason why crpg is dead now.
Main reason why crpg is dead now is because blocking is hard? wut

And an additional wut on "blocking in crpg is hard"

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